Log in

No account? Create an account
Recent Entries Friends Archive Profile ScrapBook my other bloggy thingy
I was originally going to post this as a comment to miesl's locked entry on the matter, but it got pretty long, so I'll post it here.

For all your linky goodness, and for a very TL;DR explanation, please check out these links:
The "original" post
Unfunnybusiness: OH JOHN RINGO NO!
Slog's collection

Some guys thought it would be really awesome if they could feel boobs, get it out of their supposedly natural guy systems to feel a ton of boobs and invited girls (and guys, maybe?) to wear buttons that either gave a green light to be groped or a button that said No, please don't even think about it. All in the sake of those flabby fun bags that women possess to be made public. Or something....

I still don't know exactly how I feel. I think it was a good idea in someone's head that, in a small, closed environment, worked because the people in that environment were okay with or understood it - one of those "you had to be there" kind of things. However, when brought out into a larger scale it takes on a very disgusting, rather skeezy air to it that's really pretty gross.

It would be nice if we lived in a world where my boobs were not sexualized; where I, simply being a woman and in possession of boobs, was not sexualized; and that guys where not so obsessed with boobies (I keep asking my boyfriend about his obsession with my boobs and boobs in general. He can't really explain it to me and so far, no guy has. Even gay men like boobies but, I suspect, most of that is because they can play with them in front of straight men to make them jealous. "haha, I can touch her boobies without getting slapped! HAHAHAHAH").

The line that gets me every single time I read it, and one that invokes a feeling that is akin to rage, is "I may not yet know your mind, but your body is beautiful."

What does this line say? If I were not beautiful, would you not want to get to know my mind? That my outwardly identity is the only thing that draws you near? And what about women at the con who men did NOT find beautiful, would they feel left out if no one paid attention to them? How about girls who DIDN'T have boobs? WOuld they get any attention in any way? What that line says to me, and says loudly, is that women are sex objects first, everything else second.

Now, the person who said that may not have intended that to have been the message. He may have simply wanted women to know that they were beautiful but what does beauty have to do with how intelligent a woman is? Or what that woman has to offer? Or what she can achieve, has achieved already, or will achieve in the future? All it's saying is that "you're hot and I wanna grope your boobies."

Now I do want to point something out that has bothered me in these recaps. Many of these men in question, as well as many male con-goers, have been lumped under a degrading stereotype of, and I quote, " mouth-breathing sci-fi nerd who has never been within 40 feet of a real woman." While this may have been written in anger, doesn't it demean the author's point about objectification by doing the same thing to men? Perhaps it's just "fair's fair" but if we're going to tackle this subject, choosing the correct language is kind of important.

I'm opening the floor up here for a civil discussion. I would LOVE to hear from the guys on my friends list about how they feel about this matter and about boobs in general. Are boobs taboo and that's why you want to play with them? Does the prettiness of a girl make you want to talk to her more? Do you feel that the men in question have been unfairly attacked in the response to the Open Source Boob Project?

Girls, I'd like to hear your own opinions too. How would you feel about having these buttons as an option - should there even be that option? Do you feel objectified at cons? Do you feel objectified in the real world? What is your relation to your boobs?

Everybody, as dangerous as this sounds, I'd like you to be fair and open minded if you respond to each other. Be kind, be thoughtful, I'm not gonna ban anybody (I don't hold enough celWEBerty cred to do that, anyway) and I won't freeze threads. Just, play nice, and let's see what people have to say.
TL;dr all the original stuff just responding to your post, haven't had a chance yet

Logistics issue to address first: that such a button would likely be HIGHLY discouraged by con staff who already have trouble with "Hugs for pocky" bs signage which, while seemingly tame, leads to the condoning con staff getting arrested for facilitating prostitution. This can only end baddly on that front imo.

As to my feelings on the topic of interacting with people wearing "feel free to fondle x part of my body" I a) think it would get REALLY old really fast to be that person (For pretty much the same reason I wouldn't wear a "Please touch my ass" sign around either, regardless of generally being for people touching my ass.) I also think it would do absolutely NOTHING to decrease objectification of something in this manner to make it commonplace.

I'm not really interested in touching boobs because they are "taboo" or at least not cognitive of such. I am generally only for them vs any other body part in that they feel nice not in an entirely dissimilar manner to other squishy things. And groping a breasts is at least far less likely to leave my hands a sticky mess than grabbing a handful of jello. There's more too it than "it feels nice" but not really a whole lot. I like hip bones too and tons of other parts of the human body.

Lack of attractiveness as a factor in talking with people: Hmmm possibly though it's not gender specific, I can admit that there have probably been occasions I didn't go say hi to a girl cause they were bellow some arbitrary degree of physical attractiveness, but I've done that to guys too. Some of it an implied lack of self respect that I find highly off putting, as almost all occasions of "They are way to fugly" appearances are further detracted by an utter lack of concern for hygiene, flattering attire, makeup, skin care, decent hair cut anything like that. Predominately superficial method of judgement? Tough, if someone can't be assed to expend a modicum of effort on appearing approachable.
Boobs are usually under my radar, being a homo, but one thing I know plenty about is spontaneous group sexual action, and if these guys made a mistake, it was trying to make a nonsexual event sexual. Do that and expect to take some flak, because it's not what everyone is there for.
I'm just going to c/p a reply I've put in my journal. Also - there are a couple replies from pheltzer, who was at Penguicon.

Having put the girls on ample display at Capricon for two years - I still think the button thing is creepy.

I think I find it less a crime against women, and more a crime against fandom. For the most part - I haven't found the majority of congoers to be creepy (except that guy at OddCon with the monkey puppet) or completely lacking social graces (maybe I haven't been to enough cons - or the radio at my waist made them think twice). Even with my blinkie light saying "Look at me!" or the strategically placed dagger (pirate theme) - I didn't have anyone act inappropriately.

This just makes fandom seem like a really creepy, raunchy group of teenagers - even if it wasn't the case.
the counter any arguments of cons being full of normal people: I Had a guy come up to me at an Artists Alley table and ask me to draw a picture of him as a blue elf covered in fuzz getting soddomized by Link.
As a proud owner of 'la boobies' myself, I didn't really see much of the brain in this at all-- these are boobies, pretty boobies, big boobies, little-y boobies, all allowing themselves to be groped by a stranger who asks nicely. After thinking about it a bit more, I suppose it does take a certain kind of thinking in a woman to ALLOW her breasts to be touched by a charming-ish (creep with charm?) stranger (that got away from me, but you see where I'm going with this...right?) and be okay with it-- "I have breasts, touch them!!" You can also have this thinking and say, "Hell no, these are MY boobies! MINE!"

For men, straight or otherwise, breasts are this sort of 'forbidden zone', and when they are allowed to touch them, no matter how wonderful or asshole the guy is, it's a weird, almost reverent kind of connection they make with that part of the woman's body. This has nothing to do with the mind. The mind can be worshipped as well, but it doesn't hurt if it's attached to some brilliant boobies. Men know this, and while they may not conduct themselves in a way that is respectful of 'the boobies' a lot of the time, there is always an appreciation.

Men will always look at breasts. Women will always look at breasts. In fact, I'm a woman, and I'm looking at yours right now? Boobs. Now I'm looking at mine. Boobs. Hmmm, I think I want a sandwich...I'm kind of hungry.

I suppose after all that semi-coherent rubbish I just spewed above, what you can gather from it all is just this important message to breast enthusiasts of all sexes and genders: "Respect the Boobies" (it's good for you, and it's good for the boobies)

We'll talk later- haha
to quote Connery-on-SNL : I <3 Boobs.
Well, I guess it's my turn to comment. *ahem*

If you've ever put any stock into the phrase "Love at first sight", you know that it's based on one thing: sight. Duh. Boobs are usually the first things gazed upon after the face because, let's face it, they can stick out for the most part. They are the most obvious part of the anatomy that can separate men from women (although, today that's debatable). Men have the freedom, in modern society at least, to go for a run without a shirt on. Not so much for women. Boobs can be a "forbidden zone" because, firstly, they are an erogenous area. Second, women seem to be allowed to show off the legs a bit more, which, if I can be cynical, might make them not as special (trust me when I say I don't follow this line of thinking). Also something that comes into play is that boobs are closer at eye-level than the legs are. I guess that makes them easier to find appeal in the average male eye. Personally, while the boobs can be fun to play with and easy for women to tease with, the legs can DO more. Perhaps that can explain the mass appeal of breasts: they are an easy target, and only women have them.

NOW...having been to several SNC functions of roughly 40 people or less (I'm speaking of house parties), any sort of open source grope-fest would just get out of hand in a matter of minutes. This is because you have the idiot gene. This gene, more often occurring in men, makes one think that because a handful (no pun intended) of people are doing that, it's fair game for all involved. Give an inch, and we take an acre (Huge...tracts of land!!!). I agree with you that trying something like this among strangers is hardly wise. Doing this amongst a groups of 20 of your closest friends, then we can negotiate. OR, if the men can feel the boobs, the women can feel...um....the package? I dunno, still working out that one...

Personally, I think it's a taboo because it's been drilled into our psyche's as such. If I was to grope a stranger, hello lawsuit!! And to expect anything less would make me a moron. Groping a girl I've been around at parties for maybe a year or more and can get a good idea of her boundaries, that's different. It's a fine line, I'll admit, but it's not invisible or impossible to tread.